Samantha Smith: Hello, my name is Samantha Smith. It is November 20th, 2020, and I am interviewing Kristin DeSousa for the Pace University COVID-19 and Black Lives Matter Oral History Project. Let’s begin. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself?
Kristen DeSousa: Mhm, um, hi, I’m Kristin, pronouns, she, her. Uh, I’m 20 years old and I’m white, I should probably say that, um, I live in New York. I’m a business major…. (laughs) Anything else?
SS: (laughs)I don’t know like do, do you, what, um, you’re a student, correct?
KD: Yes. I am a junior at Pace University, New York City. I’m a marketing major with an analytics minor. Uh, I’m also an RA on campus. Um, I work freelance social media for businesses, and I also work at a call center.
SS: Great. Um, where were you born?
KD: Poughkeepsie, New York.
SS:And what was it like growing up in your household?
KD: It was interesting. I had a very typical upper middle-class, white upbringing; I think, according to movies. Um, I never really worried about money. I can never really remember my parents worrying that much. My mom did lose her job in the 2008 recession, but my dad didn’t and he was, um, I still don’t really know what he did, some like fancy computer programming thing, so he made a lot of money. Um, I did all of the activities, or my sister and I, we took dance lessons and I played violin and she played cello and we were in the honors classes and we got cars when we were 17. We both went to college and yeah, it was just very… normal, like on paper, it was very normal.
SS: What were the political leanings of your parents growing up?
KD: So both of my parents have always been more progressive than you’d expect old white, rich people to be, or even just like rich white people. Cause they’re both- they’re both used to make a lot of money, um, which is good. They both always voted straight Democrat pretty much. Um, there’s this one local democratic poli- or politician that, um, he’s a Democrat and my dad won’t vote for him just because he was his first wife’s, now ex-wife obviously because of my mom, um, divorce lawyer, and he got really screwed in that divorce, so he will vote straight Democrat except for that one guy haha. Um, but they’re definitely not all the way Democrat or like, not all the way progressive, you know, I mean, my dad was happy that it was Joe Biden. You know, my dad wasn’t settled for Joe Biden. He was yay, Joe Biden. So, but they. Um, but it wasn’t something we really talked about until maybe I was like 16, maybe even- maybe 15, when I even heard them talking about it or they talked about it in front of us, to my memory.
SS: So going off of that, how did their political affiliations affect you then when you were a teen first kind of communicating with your parents about, um, political parties and stuff like that?
KD: Mhm. So all of it, a lot of my political beliefs, which are very socialist, um, I will say, honestly, I think it’s- healthcare is a human right, housing is a human right, food is a human right, education is a human right, stop talking about my uterus, all of those things. Um, but you know, not a lot of it was actually shaped by them because they didn’t bring it up until my sister or I would start to bring it up. So it was never talked about when we were like young kids. So when we got even like slightly politically involved, you know, later in our lives, you know, because of school or because of other things, you know, whatever reason, if we would ask a question, they would answer, they would never bring it up. Um, I think- I always knew that they were Democrat and you know, they weren’t racist. They weren’t homophobic. They aren’t, this is all current present tense. They still are not any of those things. Um, so I assumed they weren’t Republicans. I have since confirmed. I know they both voted for Joe Biden. But um, I don’t know. It doesn’t affect me that much, but I think it’s because I don’t really… my parents’ opinions don’t affect me on a lot of things, just in my life. So.
SS: Right. Um, when you were younger, would you describe yourself as someone who was socially or perhaps politically active?
KD: No, I wouldn’t. I wish I was, but truthfully, wasn’t something I thought about when I was a child, because my parents didn’t talk about it. It wasn’t in any of the TV shows I watched, you know, they didn’t talk about politics on iCarly, ha um, so, or at least in a direct way. I don’t know if they did. I actually haven’t watched iCarly in years, but I don’t think they did. I think I started, at least being more active or at least learning about it when I was like 15, 16, and then I started being more active when I moved to New York City.
SS: And also when you were younger, did you ever find yourself standing up for those who um may have been bullied or subjugated to discrimination?
KD: Um, I’d like to think I did. I can’t really remember any specific instances of someone being bullied and me saying, hey, that’s not cool. Um, just because my friend group and like growing up was like my Girl Scouts group, which is a whole other thing because it turns out one of the girls from my girl scout troop was actually like super racist. Um, and I can’t remember anything vividly. I mean, I know now if someone said something or did something in front of me, I would actively, that was bullied bullying or discriminatory, I would say something and I have, and I will continue to do so, but truthfully, I don’t remember if 11 year old Kristin did that.
SS: The Black Lives Matter movement was founded in 2013 with um the acquittal of the murder of Trayvon Martin. Do you remember when it was first founded?
KD: I don’t, as I said, 11 year old, Kristin didn’t do much at all, and I was 12, 13 around that time, but not that much changed from 11 to 12. Um, and you know, since it wasn’t on iCarly and my parents are passive aggressive people who didn’t talk about anything in front of us… uh, and I didn’t actively read newspapers. No, I didn’t know.
SS: So when did you first become aware of the movement?
KD: Um, probably when I moved to New York City, honestly in 2018 and like the middle of 2018 for college.
SS: And, um, what were your initial thoughts when you first heard about it?
KD: I thought it was great. Still do. Uh I think it’s super important. I think, um, it’s very obvious to me that there is an implicit ‘too’, at the end of the sentence, that just seems a lot of people don’t get. And I think, you know, when I first heard about it, I was like, ‘oh great, glad yeah, I wonder why this is… I was like, yeah, great, I wonder what can I do?’ Um, then obviously as I kept looking in, I, you know, saw people saying ‘all lives matter’. And I was like, well, yeah, that’s like the point is that all lives matter, but Black lives have been systemically discriminated against for hundreds of years. What is not clicking for you? Um, I think that was my initial thought, that like, why doesn’t everyone get this?
SS: So on May 25th, 2020 George Floyd was murdered by a police officer in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and his murder, along with the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and countless other people of color sparked a resurgence in the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020. What was your reaction to Floyd’s death and the others lost to racial violence?
KD: Um, so this was during quarantine, you know, during the past eight months. I remember all of the deaths that you- all the people you specifically just named, as well as many more, but I cried every time. I watched the videos- or I tried to. Um, but as far as, I couldn’t, I couldn’t get through the entire video of George Ford’s murder. Um, I cried a lot. Um, I felt very helpless and then I felt guilty for feeling helpless because I was like, I’m white. Um, I shouldn’t be feeling bad about this. And I was like, well, I should feel bad about this. This is, uh, these are sad events, these murders, when I need to take this sadness and guilt and do something.
SS: And, um, do you have a personal connection with the Black Lives Matter movement? And if so, um, can you talk about it?
KD: What do you mean by personal connection? Do you mean like. Like, do I support it? Do I like, I don’t, I don’t understand what you mean by personal connection.
SS: Yeah. Like, do you support it or do you have, um, friends who are very active in the movement? Are you very active in the movement? Um, kind of how do you interact with the movement I guess?
KD: Okay. Um, so I support it, obviously. Um, one movement I’ve tried to be pretty active in is the See Our Truths movement here at Pace University. Um, I would highly encourage anyone listening to this uh, if the Instagram page still exists, which I’m sure will, to go watch all of the videos, the students’ stories, and the accounts of racism and discrimination by admin and people brought in by admin and teachers at Pace against students. Um, highly encourage everyone to watch that. So that movement, uh, is, uh, I try to be as active in that movement as I possibly can, because I am currently in Pace, I go to Pace. So, um, that’s, I’m pretty active in, I think, or at least I try to be. Um, another place, I guess I’m like a little bit active, um, is Ohio. That’s where my boyfriend lives. It’s like where his family’s from. Um, he’s black, as is his whole family obviously, and they are very active, like in their racist town. Um, they’ve been pretty active so I’ve, although I can’t like physically be there, I kind of support them from the distance of me living in New York as much as I can.
SS: And how have you been exposed to the movement? Was it- has it been through the news or social media, family and friends?
KD: So the news, um, social media, obviously, uh, I try to share things a lot on social media. Um, I personally click on a lot of people’s stories and like, I like to click through all the stories. Um, and then like, I usually read what’s on someone’s story. I’m the one who does that. So I try to post a lot of things on my story that are informative and helpful. So if there are other people doing that, but there are- there are other people who click on stories and read the posts then my stories are like informative. Um, my family sort of in terms of my sister and I actively talk about it and we try to talk to our parents about it in terms of like educating, um, the thing we’re trying to educate them on now is, uh, ACAB, which is difficult. You know, we get a lot of, ‘I know cops, they’re not all bad,’ but it’s an ongoing process. Um, and my friends and I, um, do often talk about Black Lives Matter and racial discrimination, um, specifically, you know, a lot of my friends right now, uh, go to Pace, so we talk a lot about the racial discrimination happening at Pace and how to combat that and how to get it to change. Um, yeah.
SS: What are your thoughts on non-people of color being involved in the movement?
KD: I think it’s kind of similar to men in feminism. I think men should support feminism. I think it’s important. I think you’re sexist, if you don’t obviously, but I don’t think you need to say anything. I don’t think you need to offer your opinion up unless um asked. And I think the other most important thing in my experience that, I’m sure every single other white person will say this, is that they’ve been in a room with some other white person who feels comfortable enough to say something racist to them. Every single white person has experienced this. I will die on that hill. Um, when is, in that moment, I think is the most important for white people in the movement because in that moment, you can either laugh it off uncomfortably and move it away. Like move away, just ignore it, or you can be true to what you say, be true to what you support and actively try to educate and, you know, like help someone be not racist because I don’t feel like it’s any black person or any BIPOC person’s job or responsibility to educate a racist white person, that is so taxing and emotionally draining. I can’t even imagine. So I think that is what white people’s most important role in the movement is to educate the other white racist people that feel comfortable enough to say racist things towards white people, hoping that they will agree with them. If you just laugh it off, you are agreeing. You need to say something.
SS: That’s a great point. Um, what are your thoughts on the police system in America?
KD: Um, a lot of thoughts on the police system, on the entire judicial system. I mean, it was all established on racism. It was all established after slavery. You know, I mean, once slavery was quote unquote abolished, which honestly abolished as a dumb word, it was just reformed as the legal forms of slavery, the prison system. I think, you know, after slavery was ended, it wasn’t, uh, white people in the government just wanted to find ways to oppress black people, um, and other people of color and that, and that’s what they did. That’s what they use the police system and the judiciary system to do. They made crimes like stealing a loaf of bread punishable by death or punishable by life in jail. Um, and so like dumb things like that, and that system still persists to this day. Change it all, tear it all to the ground and start over.
SS: And, uh, continuing that uh, what are your thoughts on the government’s response to Black Lives Matter?
KD: So I think it depends on who in the government, if you’re talking about Diane Miralis, uh, New York City’s next mayoral candidate in 2021. Um, she, it’s wonderful. Uh, she’s an active supporter. She’s been to protests. Um, she lives in Brooklyn with her daughter and they- yeah, she just in general, she is incredibly supportive of her community, of New York City, of the movement, of the movement in her community. Um I have similar thoughts about people like AOC, who are actively, at least to my point of view, actively trying to help people and actively recognize the injustice. However, that’s not everyone in the government as we know, heading for the big honcho, freaking Donald Trump, absolute racist, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist, every phobic you can think of probably fits Donald Trump. Um, obviously he is the president for the next month. Um, that is still like I haven’t been, and I think it’s really…am I allowed to curse on this? Cause I would say f that.
SS: Listen, go ahead. Ha ha.
KD: Okay. Um, it’s really fucked up. I just think it’s ridiculous that he could one even get elected, back when he was elected four years ago. Ridiculous. The fact that it was so close in this election. Ridiculous.
SS: Um, so do you think that the movement has been successful thus far?
KD: That’s an interesting question. Um, I think a lot of people interpret success as meeting the end goal. Um, and obviously the end goal is stop letting racist people have power, um, particularly in government and other forms and like other- right now, obviously it’s in government is what we’re focusing on, but of course, you know, racist people anywhere. You’re not- that’s just- no, that’s just a big, no. Um, but I do think the movement has had, has hit some very good success- milestones? That might not be the right word, but there have been points of successful actions. For example, um, one of George Floyd’s murders being charged, that wouldn’t have happened without the movement.
SS: I agree. Um, I definitely agree with that statement. Um, uh, how do you think the Black Lives Matter movement has affected America as a whole?
KD: So this question makes me think of a quote from a podcast I listened to a couple of months ago and I cannot remember the name of the podcast or who exactly was on it. And I try for the life of me to, because this quote vividly sticks with me. Um, and if I find it, I will email it to you. Ha ha um, I’ve been searching, but I cannot find it again. The ending quote was about how, you know, a lot of people had said and still continue to say that this movement has been giving voices to the voiceless and we- the women on this podcast says, I think that’s wrong. I think the POC have been screaming for years and this movement has finally been giving ears to the earless.
SS: That’s a very poignant quote. Um, wow. Um, okay. So, um, to transition now to another point, um, another aspect of this past year, um, about two months before the Black Lives Matter movement saw a resurgence in the late spring of 2020, COVID-19 reached the United States and quarantine was implemented throughout the country. When did you first hear about the virus?
KD: Uh, I think I first heard about it, mmm, early February, approximately. Um, I was living in Italy at this time. I was in Rome, gallivanting around Europe. And I think I heard about it in terms of it was deeply affecting China and in February I still didn’t… I- we were still kind of just like, oh, it’s in China, okay we’re in Rome. I hope they get better. We didn’t really think it would affect us.
SS: Um, so you weren’t, you didn’t really think that it could- spread to Italy or spread to Europe?
KD: Not for… a while. No, I mean, eventually, you know, in the beginning of March we start hearing Milan is shut down, shut down. Um, and that’s in Northern Italy, uh, for the record, northern, Milan is in Northern Italy. Rome is in like the middle, closer to the South. Um, and so I’m here and Milan and I’m like, okay, if it just stays North, when, I’m alright in Rome and we watch this like tracker, there was this website. I don’t remember exactly what news site it was that my roommates and I, um, who were from DC and one of them was from Washington state, um, so we’re all from America. Um, we would check this tracker every day to see like where the line was in Italy, creeping down closer and closer to Rome.
SS: So when did you realize the seriousness of the situation?
KD: When I got kicked out of Europe. Maybe it was like a couple, like a couple of days before I got kicked out of Europe, I was like, oh, I’m going to have to leave. But when my friends started, like kicked out, I mean, pulled out of their study abroad programs, when my friends started getting pulled, which was about the first one of my friends got pulled about a week and a half before I did.
SS: And while you were still in Italy, um, did you see any changes as the pandemic started to spread in Italy? Um, like what was it like… did you still go out and walk around or were you just staying inside your, your apartment? Um, how were the people acting around you? Can you just kind of like talk about that a little bit.
KD: Mhm. So, uh, I was in closer to Southern Italy, which did not shut down until later. Let me put that out there. Um, I also did not think COVID was a big deal at that point. I recognized that was dumb and reckless of me because I do not have a medical degree. I had no authority to think that, absolutely at all. I was just a dumb 19 year old, at that point I was still 19, who wanted to live it up in Europe. Um, so my friend started getting a cold and then I actually got on a plane and went to Amsterdam, um, to meet another friend. We spent the weekend in Amsterdam and then I went back to Rome and then I got on a cruise. Uh, in like mid-March out of Italy, which was absolutely wild. Ha ha I can’t believe I did that still. Um, but to Italy, like to Rome, Palermo, uh, Malta, Barcelona, Mersai, and Palma de Mallorca. Um, can not believe I did that. Oh my gosh. Incredibly reckless. I recognize I should not have done it. It was very fun though, at the time. In the middle of that week of me being on a boat in the middle of the ocean, with two of my friends, I was not completely alone. Uh, you know, in the middle of the ocean, I only had service when we were docked, which was not for significant amounts of time. So. In the middle of this week is when Trump came on the news and said, no one from Europe can come home. I, in the middle of the ocean, did not know this. However, my mom in America, knowing that I was on a boat in the middle of the ocean, saw this and freaked out, obviously. Of course, 20 minutes later, someone else came on and was like, that’s not true, if you’re an American citizen you’re fine. Um, so I think, and then I got off the boat. Um, but so my mom’s like booking flights for me every single day. Once I get off this boat out of Rome, I have a flight back to America. Um, so I get off the boat and I pack everything I own. I was fully living there. I pack everything I own, which is hard. And then I see I got a notification from this flight that says you need to have a mask to get on the plane. And I was like, Oh crap, I don’t have a mask. Um, and for this one day that I was back in Europe, back in Italy, my cruise docked in the morning, we get out in Italy. My flight leaves the next day. Um, when you went outside in Italy, you had to be carrying what’s called a self disclosure form and you had to have your passport and your visa on you at all the time. So I have both of those and this self disclosure form had your name, your passport number or your like ID number, um, where you were living, uh, the date and what you’re going to do. Right, so where you were going, um, because you needed to just be going to the pharmacy, to the grocery store, whatever, and a police man could stop you at any time in Italy, look at the form and then they would sign and date it. And if you didn’t have this form you get like a huge fine. And if you had a form that was from a previous day at any time also huge fine. So, I was like running all over Italy, hunting down a mask. Found one. Got on the plane, had to keep my mask on the whole plane ride, 10 hours. So the first time I wore a mask.
SS: Wow, haha, wow. Um, so when you got back to the States, um, how did your life change um, when most of the country went into quarantine?
KD: Yeah so I knew coming back from Italy, you had the two week quarantine, right? Obviously. So I was already planning to do this. My parents were just going to do with me. They’re both retired. Uh, I was going back since I’m a college student, I was living in the dorm prior to this, so I was coming back to like my childhood house. Um, at the beginning of this two weeks right like when I got picked up from JFK, the US was not in quarantine. Um, students had been sent home for spring break at this point. And it was like, I think they had got sent home early. I don’t totally remember what Pace did. Um, but at this point it was still kind of like, all right, it’s cautious, but it’s like not locked out. It wasn’t locked up. And by the end of two weeks, people were trampled in grocery stores looking for toilet paper. Um, and then, you know, I- my life was completely different than what I thought it was going to be for the next six months. I mean, I thought I would spend at least another two months gallivanting around Europe. Um, and then when I, my plan was, you know, I’d come back from Europe in May, and then I had jobs lined up in New York City, jobs and internships, then I would come back down here, uh, sublet or live in Pace dorms because Pace does summer housing. Uh, and just then we living a city girl summer New York City, and that all completely changed. All jobs got canceled. I couldn’t, um, be in New York City. You know, I was in Poughkeepsie, where I’m from. Um, financially I was like, kind of fine. I mean, I would have been better had COVID not happened because I would have had those jobs, would have made more money, but I didn’t have to worry about making rent because I was staying with my parents. They’re both retired and they had fine retirement savings. We didn’t have to worry about things like that, which was really fortunate, really, really fortunate that I didn’t.
SS: So you had to, um, when you got back from Italy, you had to do a two-week self-quarantine?
KD: Yeah. So I came back from Italy. My parents were coming from JFK. We came back and then none of us, um, the three of us, I didn’t really… like, I mostly just stayed in my room pretty much. I wore a mask, the whole car ride back. It’s like a two hour drive, uh, because my parents are a little bit older. Um, my mom’s like 59, 58, 59. My dad’s 67. Um, so it was like, I’ll just keep this on. I’ve been wearing it for 10 hours already. Um, but they also didn’t leave the house for two weeks. Uh, it was technically I should have been isolating, but they just also didn’t leave that. So technically we were all isolating, but it was just anyone else.
SS: So, um, once those two weeks were up and, um, we were still in lockdown throughout the country and, um, sort of still in the quarantine um, how did that affect your mental health?
KD: Oh, it was terrible. I mean, cause I was still doing classes, right? So I’m doing these classes that I thought I was going to be taking while I was in Europe. So that was just bad of course, and they’re online. And of course all of them have group projects. So I’m trying to deal with the time difference. Bullcrap. And um, I had to leave all of my friends in Italy, who I still talk to on a very daily basis. Some of them are my closest friends. Um, and I had to live in my childhood home, which I had not been prepared to do, you know, I moved out for college and I hadn’t actually gone back for longer than like three days, because for summer breaks and winter breaks, I stayed in New York City in dorms because I worked. So I hadn’t really been back for more than like three days at a time. Um, and I was, uh, very sad about being kicked out of Europe. So I was trying to deal with my own emotions about that. I was trying to comfort my parents who were very one, worried for my sister who is an essential worker, two try to stay safe themselves, three, a mom’s very social, she likes to, she sees her friends often, you know, she, she’s retired now. So she, yeah, she goes from like pretty regular lunch dates with like different friends. She couldn’t see any of them anymore. So that was very sad. And, four they’re- they were planning to come to Italy to see me for about a month- a month after like- I believe in April. And so obviously that got canceled. And so they were very sad about that. And so, uh, I don’t know, it just was very… draining. I did not do well. I started going to therapy again in quarantine, probably as did most people.
SS: Well, I’m, I’m happy that you were able to, um, seek help with, um, dealing with how, uh, the pandemic affected your, your mental health. That’s good. Oh, okay. So moving on, um, what are your thoughts on the safety precautions that America has or has not followed?
KD: Um, well, the fact that masks are a debated topic blows my mind. Um, I don’t understand why someone doesn’t want to wear a mask. I love going outside wearing a mask and people can’t see my face. I absolutely love it. You can’t tell if I’m crying, if I’m mouthing Mama Mia lyrics, you can’t even tell who I am. You can’t tell who I am unless I’m actively showing you. I love it. I’d wear a mask all, all the time. Even if there’s a vaccine, I want to keep wearing it. Um, and I mean, you know, I think a large part of it is very, very much Trump’s fault directly. I would directly place that, I would have him tried for endangerment on human lives, American people’s lives in court because, for so many reasons. They threw out the pandemic response book and disbanded that task force that was left from the Obama-Biden era. Um, they pretended it wasn’t real. He refused to wear a mask. He held giant events. Um, he, I don’t know if you remember that thing where USPS was planning on sending out masks to every household and he blocked it. It was just so, so many things. Um, I do deeply blame Trump for, in terms of people dying. And, um, I think, I mean you know, I liked what Cuomo did at first. Now I think he’s dropping the ball because it’s worse now than it was in March. In March, you shut down schools. Now you’re not? Now I can go to, I can go to a bar right now. It’s 8:24 PM. I can go to a bar right now and sit inside without a mask. And I could talk to the server without a mask on too. I don’t even have to, when a waitress comes up to me, I don’t have to put a mask back on. I do. I don’t really go out that much. The only person I’ve really seen in a restaurant is, um, I had lunch for my birthday with my uncle who lives in the city, outside.
SS: And did you know anyone who, um, contracted COVID?
KD: A couple. Um, there was a couple of people, um, like in my town who I know had it. A couple of people in my town, like my first dance teacher, uh, from Poughkeepsie, when I was four, her and her husband both had it and died. Um, she was the sweetest woman, her name was Ellen. Um, and she had, uh, she owns the dance studio. It was a very big dance studio. I wasn’t big, but there was a lot of, uh, kids, all ages and she remembered everyone’s name. Oh my God. Um, I mean, I had it when I was four and I probably didn’t see her again. Well, I mean, I saw her but never had her in another class. And she remembered my name all the way up through. She remembered things about my life and her thing was she would kiss her hand to go and tap her head and she’d go ‘give your brains a kiss’ and [indistinguishable]. And I know people who, um, have had the antibody tests and it’s shown that they’ve had antibodies, but they don’t remember when they had it.
SS: Wow. I’m so sorry for your loss. Um, um, okay. Um, what do you think the lasting effects of the pandemic will be both in America and in the world?
KD: I think it will be very different lasting effects in specifically America and then generally out in the world. I mean, you know, there’s places in Europe where they haven’t had a COVID case in days, they’ve had weeks go by where they haven’t had one case. And America had 1 million cases in a single week, like two weeks ago. So I don’t know. I mean, I think the lasting effect in terms of America in the world, is that the rest of the world can clearly see that America doesn’t care about its people and half of America doesn’t wear masks. And it’s just like really dumb. We just look really dumb to the rest of the world and I don’t think that reputation, uh, think it’s always been there, but I think now it’s just like very clearly reinforced, I think. Uh, that’s just gonna continue: Americans, just the laughingstock of the world. Rightfully so.
SS: So, um, historically there has always been a connection between, um, pandemics and social justice movements. Um, for example, the, um, Black plague had connections to the Peasant Revolt back in the, uh, 17th and 15th centuries. Um, sorry, 17th and 16th centuries. Um, as well as, um, the 1918-1919 influenza coinciding with race riots that were happening in America, and then also the polio- um polio illness, uh, coinciding with the Civil Rights movement. So historically there was a connection between these, um, these two seemingly very different events that can happen in history. And, um, so how do you think that COVID-19 and Black Lives Matter um, how do you think that they are related or connected?
KD: So I do have a lot of feelings on this and a lot of thoughts on this. Um, I think a lot of people will automatically assume, um, and this is, it is correct and statistically proven that BIPOC are affected more by COVID-19 and however, that’s true all through medicine. The Black maternal mortality rate is 240 something percent higher. Um, personally I think that social movements are connected to pandemics for one simple reason. And that reason is people now are not working 40 hours a week. When you were working 40 hours a week, 50, 60, you’re working two, three jobs at a barely livable wage to afford your life. You don’t have time to look into what this means to look into what you can do, to go to protest. You don’t have time. You just purely don’t have time. The thing that capitalism operates off of is not money, it is time. And when people in power and capitalism take away your time, it means that you have less time to revolt against and realize what should be, right, and realize that the way you’re being treated is wrong. And so I’m just adjusting… So now with people staying home, um, and things like that with capitalism, in some sense is on a pause, not entirely, of course, you know, it never fully went offline, right? But people just have more time and that is what people in power always want to take away from people they are pressing because when you have time and when you can talk to each other, and when you have the time to gather and express your feelings, that’s when things start to change.
SS: That was a great response, truly. Um, so, um, moving on now, which do you think will impact America more COVID-19 or Black Lives Matter?
KD: Black Lives Matter. I think Black Lives Matter is going to implement some lasting change within America, hopefully. Um, you know, manifesting that into the universe. And I think if a vaccine comes out in the next year, then people are just gonna act like COVID never happened.
SS: So um going off of that previous question, which do you think will impact the world more COVID-19 or Black Lives Matter?
KD: COVID-19 um, because I, although I, there are Black Lives Matter movements in a lot of other countries, I do think… at least to my understanding, I don’t know, I, I could be wrong about this and I will be doing more research tonight, um, I think the American movement is very mobilized right now. Um, and I think a lot of the rest of the world took COVID-19 seriously. And I think when COVID-19 is over, a lot of the rest of the world is not just going to act like it didn’t happen. Like I think America will.
SS: How have these two major historical events, COVID-19 and Black Lives Matter, uh, how have they in tandem affected your mental health?
KD: Um, so for the majority of these two events happening, I was in quarantine in my parents’ house. Um, and so… and I’m not a home body. I, you know, even in high school, when I was still living there, I worked like three jobs and I was never home. Um, so being forced into that space deeply affected my mental health. Uh, being so far away from my boyfriend was very difficult. Um, and as I mentioned before, he’s Black in a very racist part of Ohio. Um, and him and his family are very active in the movement. And so there would be protests, you know, like in towns, near them, like in Dayton or something. Um, and they would go and, you know, he would text me when he was going and then he’d turn his phone off, obviously, so his location doesn’t gets tracked and then, um, he would text me when he got home. Obviously, until he got home, I would just sit there and stare at my phone, just shaking. It was silence. And one time he didn’t text me. Um, he was going to a late night protest at this point, curfew in the town he was going to was 9:00 or 10:00 PM. I don’t remember. Um, it was like 11, so it was passed and, um, texted me. He was going to and he turned his phone off. And then, uh, they were running, you know, after, I found this out later, you know, they had to run away and, uh, when he got home, he just crashed hard and his phone was still off and it’s like, 2:00 AM, at this point, I’m still awake staring at my phone. The messages are still… I texted him. That’s who I am. The message sends green. So his phone is off. Um, and you know, logically I knew that his sister or his mom would’ve called me if something happened. I knew they would have, but that’s not the point. Um, and at 4:00 AM, he wakes up to get a glass of water, turns his phone on, and texts me. I’m still awake. Then immediately after he texts me, I fall asleep.
SS: Wow. Um, that must’ve been really… a very stressful time for you, um, and for him as well. Um, so what do you hope for the future of COVID-19?
KD: Uh, I hope there’s not a huge spike in the next week with Thanksgiving. I know that is naive of me to hope, but I’m still going to hope it. Um, oh… I hope people suddenly develop empathy and start wearing their masks and stay home. And I hope that, um, if slash when a vaccine comes, people don’t decide that a Reddit thread is more accurate than someone’s medical degree.
SS: And going off of that, what do you hope for the future of the Black Lives Matter movement?
KD: Um, earlier when you asked me the question, what does, do you think it has been successful? And I said, you know, a lot of people don’t think of success until some like big end goals that you have- theoretical end goals are met. Um, I hope those end goals are met. You know, I hope police departments across the country are defunded and that money is put back into community programs that are actually proven to reduce crime and help people. I hope, um, the judiciary system and cash bail, the concept of cash bail, is thrown out the window. Um, I hope, um, public education across the schools are funded, I guess that goes into defunding police departments, but I hope, uh, police, police are taken out of schools, [indistinguishable]. And, um, I hope that… I hope that the movement hits the bigger long-term goals that people would say ‘yes, it has been successful.’ People would say ‘yes’ to your earlier question.
SS: Is there anything else you would like to talk about or say?
KD: Hmm. I guess just one thing and I kind of said it earlier, but I think it’s really important. So I’m going to say it again. Um, I actually heard this from Ellen Pompeo first, uh, who is the main actress on Grey’s Anatomy, so if you’re interested in looking at this specific interview, feel free. Um, but she says in an interview, ‘white people created the problem, it is white people’s responsibility to fix it.’ And she is very active in the Black Lives Matter movement, um, on a lot of shows and stuff she works on, she is very active in making sure there are a diverse cast and crew. Um, and I just think that one sentence of white people created the problem, it’s white people’s responsibility to fix it, as really important because you know, a lot of people understand the concept of you make a mess, you need to clean it up. And you know, that’s true when you drop a plate on the ground and it shatters and it’s also true for bigger things. And so every white person who hears this, I don’t know if anyone will, but call out your racist friends, your racist family. Um, at a party when someone casually says something to you and laughs and you’re expected to laugh it off with them, don’t laugh, because if you laugh, you are perpetuating the fact, and you are showing the fact that you think racism is okay, casual racism is okay to you. And if that’s true, if you think that, then you’ve got some more research to do, you got some more work to do, but you cannot just stand by, you need to stand in support of, or you are part of the process.
SS: I completely agree. Um, to add to that, I, um, I heard this quote a couple months ago that’s like, um, that says, um, ‘Black people are most dangerous in the minds of white people.’ So it’s basically saying that, um, white people imagine the worst in Black people and they imagine- they create these imaginative ideas that they’re dangerous and, you know, that’s where racism comes from. And so it’s important that, uh, white people address this and, um, address their racism. Um, so yeah, that’s another poignant quote, you know, adding to the, uh, two others that you’ve talked about um, so far in this interview. Um, okay, so is there-
KD: And all white people, read White Fragility by Robert DiAngelo, if you still don’t get it, read that book.
SS: Okay. Um, so is there, is there anything else you want to say before we end the interview?
KD: No, I think that’s it.
SS: All right. Well, thank you Kristin for participating in this interview today. I really appreciate it. Um, best of luck to you in the future.
KD: Thank you. You as well, Sam.
SS: Alright, thank you. Bye bye.
KD: Bye.
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